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SandraL
Posts:2
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Posted:09/08/2006 11:20 PM |
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Hello,
I am relatively new at BRCC (4mos); on two occassions on a Sunday morning, I have witnessed gay couples (2 different couples) holding hands in church. At the time, I prayed that they would be convicted by the Holy Spirit; I felt compassion toward them, but also I felt anger for their disprespect toward God and His House. I have gay friends and gay co-workers, so don't get me wrong; I am happy they are in church to hear such wonderful messages. I guess I'm just conflicted between that and anger toward their boldness. Anyone have an opinion? Am I the only one who has seen this at BRCC?
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sweetlybroken
Posts:10
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Posted:09/09/2006 7:14 AM |
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Hi,
My husband and I are also new to BRCC (2months). You asked if anyone had an opinion on this matter. I guess my only thoughts on it are that God knows everything about each and every one of us - in and out of church. So, my feelings are that if people behave one way in church and another way out of church it is only to protect or shield themselves from the opinions of other people. Not God. I try not to judge or condemn anyone for their choices in life. If I feel uncomfortable around anyone for whatever reason I pray for compassion and acceptance. Let God do the rest...if there is anything else to do. On a lighter note....I wish more couples would hold hands during the service including my husband LOL 
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RedOregon
Posts:49
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Posted:09/09/2006 7:48 AM |
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(From my wife)
I was shocked when I first saw this, but during my quiet time I remembered Matthew 9:13. "...for I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." There's another verse something like this about how if we were perfect we wouldn't need doctors. The sick need doctors. Those who need fixing belong in church. We sure shouldn't be judging those who come to get healed... not to be attacking you, but we go to church because we need help, so we all need to be healed, whether your problem is obvious and visible or not. If we reject, then how can people who need help get God's word? Instead of getting hung up on obvious problems, how about saying, "Jesus loves you"? Just some thoughts that the Spirit sent me during my quiet time this morning.
(from me)
I've been going to BRCC for about seven years or so now. I've never seen this... guess my focus is on something other than the other people in the church and their behavior. Are we sure this wasn't close friends or maybe even relatives? Sometimes I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt a lot.
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BigDBrown
Posts:11
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Posted:09/10/2006 4:50 PM |
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 You have to be careful when you come to church, the place is just full of sinners!
Love the sinner and hate the sin. We all sin. You can see them hold hands so it is right there in front of you. The guy next to them may have gotten drunk or stoned last night. The guy on the other side may have cheated on his spouse, or had lustful thoughts about the girl that just passed in front of him in the isle moments earlier. The person in front of them may have spent the previous night watching "adult" videos. I think we just have to continue to pray that God will continue, first, to work in our hearts to help us overcome our own sins, and second, to continue to pray for all of those around us in church.
D
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SandraL
Posts:2
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Posted:09/10/2006 10:52 PM |
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my dear Christian friends,
my focus was not in anything except the fact that someone would be as bold as to exhibit their homosexual lifestyle in the SANCTITY OF A CHURCH. that was all. i would have felt the same to see someone wearing, for example, a shirt that revealed cleavage or short shorts! inappropriate! are we not expected to treat God's House for what it is? Holy!? as we are to treat the sanctuary as the Holy place that it is, this was a shock to me. i am careful not to drop even a gum wrapper in the House of God, and I believe God would have us treat His House as such.
yes, odds are, there are people at BRCC who drink, smoke, are into porn, etc. but i have yet to see someone drink a beer, light up a cigarette, or kick back and read a porn magazine into the sanctuary. i stated i have friends who are gay. i DO love the sinner and hate the sin. i do NOT pray for acceptance of this behavior as one person stated on this topic. i do not believe God would have us pray for acceptance! is that what Jesus would have prayed? where is our boldness to react in the way Christ would react? yes, with LOVE! but not with ACCEPTANCE!!
i have gay friends that i treat with love and kindness and pray for opportunities to witness to them. but when invited on weekend trips with them, i decline! i do not believe i am to be in a hotel where two people of the same sex are sharing a bed! i do not beat them over the head with the Bible, but i DO take a stand for Christ. i have gay friends who attend church, and i pray every weekend that they continue to attend, but, as i stated earlier, that God would convict them, just as i pray He do for me and everyone else.
of course we all are sinners, myself included. but for Christians to pray that 'God would help them be accepting' of wordly things, to 'give people the benefit of the doubt' and fail to take a stand for Christ for fear of being labeled 'judgmental' (all points you all made in your posts) is a symptom of the world's influence seeping in to blur the lines of worldly and Godly.
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RedOregon
Posts:49
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Posted:09/11/2006 6:56 AM |
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Just a clarification... when I mentioned the benefit of the doubt, I meant that maybe they were holding hands for some other reason than being gay.
Good points in this conversation that should help us all to understand. I see some good discussion going on here, not arguments or judgements flying back and forth. Thanks to BRCC for giving us a way to discuss issues with Christian love! And thanks for bringing this topic to light! 
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sweetlybroken
Posts:10
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Posted:09/13/2006 6:35 AM |
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I meant acceptance of the person not the behavior. I pray for acceptance so that I don't reject the person although I reject the behavior.
Sorry for any confusion.
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RedOregon
Posts:49
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Posted:09/13/2006 6:49 AM |
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Nothing to be sorry about... sometimes when typing it's hard to be as clear as when we speak. Thanks for your inputs and clarifications, and thanks again to SandraL for starting this interesting discussion!
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| Hopeful for mercy (guest) |
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Posted:09/13/2006 1:05 PM |
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As this particular message has been put at the top of the board over and over and over and over and over again, and again...etc... Anyway, I thought I might respond to it. Lord knows my faults and my weaknesses as he knows all things. If indeed any of my weaknesses were displayed for all to see, I would hope that my spiritural family would be there for support no matter what. Is one sin greater than the other??? I thank God that the sacrifice was for the sick such as we all are. God bless
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| Hopeful again (guest) |
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Posted:09/13/2006 1:18 PM |
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Please do not take this the wrong way....I noticed the words "sanctiyty of the church" in there some where in there. As Jesus said, The kingdom of heaven is within US as believers, not within the confines of a building. The stregnth in numbers and the presence of our Lord is the church. After services are over and everyone goes home, the building is simply a building. God bless
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| New to town (guest) |
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Posted:09/18/2006 5:40 PM |
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Hello,
I a just moved to SA i2 weeks ago. I am looking for a church. I am planning on visiting BRCC soon. I was wondering what the official stand of the church and the pastor in regards to homosexuals in the church. Is BRCC open and affirming? Is opnely gay couples welcome? What about christians who are struggling and looking for a way out? Anyway... figured since the topic is here, I would just ask.
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| luvinmyguitar (guest) |
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Posted:09/19/2006 12:49 AM |
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Just to respond to a few of these posts...
I would rather sinners be hearing the word of God on Sunday, than have them be anywhere else. If ANYONE wants to hear the word of God, let them come. Jesus spent His time with prostitutes and tax-collectors, He walked among the people that needed to hear about Him. I am excited that sinners from all walks of life are coming to BRCC to learn about Jesus.
I can't speak for BRCC's "official stance," I believe that would be best worded by one of the pastors. My personal stance is that homosexuality is sin and we are all sinners. None of us are better or worse than any other human being. We all have the equal opportunity for grace.
I believe that all sin comes from brokenness. My friend Ricky always says that "every sin is just an illegitimate way to meet a legitimate need." Sometimes we can get broken so deeply, that our wound feels like it is a permanent fixture in our life. Just because a wound has become familiar, doesn't mean you have to walk through life with that pain.
We all struggle with sin. I don't care if it's over-eating, gambling, lying, gossip, pornography, rebellion, adultery, pride, speeding, drugs, or homosexuality... my God takes all kinds. He loves you, heals you, holds you, and walks with you, no matter where you came from.
I believe that homosexuality can be healed, that change is possible. Freedom is real.
I struggled with homosexuality internally for most of my life. I actively lived the lifestyle for five years and had multiple partners. I had a relationship that lasted over two years. I fought for YEARS to mesh what I felt with what I believed.
I thank God for the people of the church who loved me where I was at and walked with me. I thank God for churches that opened their doors to me, and for pastors who invited me to their homes to have dinner with their families.
I thank God that He healed my brokenness. I thank God that He made me whole and that I have been living in freedom for almost three years now. God changed my life.
But... that's just me...
~Sarah
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gfike
Posts:249
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Posted:09/19/2006 6:42 AM |
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The official stance in the church is always: "what does scripture say?"
Homosexual behavor is condemned in both Testaments of the Bible.
It is very clearly identified in Romans 1:18-32 as an indicator of a
moral freefall. The progression given there is:
a. rejection of God's revelation
b. moral self-determination
c. idolatry (worshipping the temporary and ignoring the eternal)
- GOD GIVES THEM OVER TO
d. sexual impurity
- GOD THEN AGAIN GIVES THEM OVER TO
e. homosexual behavior with resulting physical problems
- GOD THEN AGAIN GIVES THEM OVER TO
f. complete moral failure, advocating sin of all kinds as a lifestyle
I think Sarah said it best: it is brokenness. Let's acknowledge
it as such. In the 1970's, under political pressure,
homosexuality was removed from the list of sexual deviations by the
American Psychological Association; many members disagreed with that
decision. The very nature of the physical act shows the il-logic
of homosexual practice. The design of God is for monogamous
heterosexual engagement. Homosexual license and activity is error. Homosexual leaning is dysfunctional.
Whatever is broken God can fix. But the path to healing will
always involve humility and repentance. We are here to walk with
people through their healing processes. This is no different than
anyone else's baggage. We welcome all sinners. because that's all
we have to work with!
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| New to Town (guest) |
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Posted:09/19/2006 12:18 PM |
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I apprciate the replies. Sara thank you for sharing your story. It is interesting to hear. I have known many people who have left the homosexual lifestyle 'for a time'. I have known people who have 'walked in freedom' for over 5 years and then returned to that former life. I too have been 'walking in freedom' for 26 months. Though I am still celibate, I feel no more straight today then I did when my 4 and 1/2 year relationship ended. I have been involved in counseling and support groups. Part ofmy move to SA was to get better understanding of who I am and what and where God is.
As for the pastoral repsonse... thank you for clarifying what he church believes as well asyour interpretation of it. I am still curious, would a struggling person or someone who was living an outright homosexual life be welcomed and accepted in the church. (Please don't give me the BS "hate the sin, love the sinner" cause we know that does not really happen.) Would he/she be comfortable or would the person be stared at and ostracised?
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gfike
Posts:249
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Posted:09/19/2006 12:53 PM |
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"I
am still curious, would a struggling person or someone who was living
an outright homosexual life be welcomed and accepted in the church... Would he/she be comfortable or would the person be stared at and ostracised?"What
would identify someone as "living an outright homosexual lifestyle"
while sitting in church? Would there be any noticeable difference
from a heterosexual woman who is having an affair with a married man or
a businessman currently embezzling from his business? How would
one know? Most people don't wear signage advertising their sexual
orientation.
What causes people to stare?
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| Luvinmyguitar (guest) |
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Posted:09/19/2006 2:13 PM |
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My definition of freedom is more than just not having sex. In fact I believe that the opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality. I believe it is closeness to God. Let me explain that.
For me, I couldn’t just focus on "being straight." That just controls behavior, that just changes appearances and does nothing about the root issues, the reasons I struggled with homosexuality. When I began to understand WHY I struggled with this stuff, it no longer was this huge black cloud that touched every area of my life and felt like it was a part of me. It became something with a beginning, with roots, that CAME from somewhere, which meant that it did not have to be a permanent fixture in my life.
But the way for me to overcome sin is never to just try harder and be better and want it more. The way to overcome sin, is to become closer to God.
When we love our God more than we love our sin, we stop sinning. When we are content in who God made us to be and in our relationship with Him, we will stop seeking love in unhealthy places. When we know who God says we are, we stop asking other people to define us. When we know we are secure in the love of God, when we walk with Him, our need for sin starts to disappear.
I believe this is why Satan uses shame so powerfully in our lives. When we sin, we want to run away and hide just like Adam did when He made a mistake in the Garden of Eden. He wanted to put distance between himself and God. He wanted to cover up his shame. He wanted to hide.
Distance between us and God is what allows our sin to grow and clouds our vision of who we really are. You fight that by digging into the Word of God and talking and walking with Him. The nearness of my God is what holds me together and shows me who I really am. Walking in the truth of who God says I am, is freedom. Freedom is learning to let God meet my needs so I am no longer seeking my wholeness from outside of God.
The closer I got to Him, the more I understood who He created me to be. The more I learn who I truly am, the more I am freed to live the life He created me to live. I’m not sure if that makes sense.
I just wanted to stress that I don’t believe freedom is more than just "not having sex." I believe that freedom is a change in the way you see yourself, which in turn changes the way you see and relate to others. To clarify, I am not having sex... with ANYONE. But that is a product of walking closely with my God. I don’t need sex or the closeness of a person to hold me together anymore.
Freedom was uncovering my true identity in Christ which frees me to relate healthily with the world. The more I realize who I truly am, the more I learn about my identity in Christ and draw closer to Him, the less sin and sin struggles I have in all areas of my life.
Does that make any sense?
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| New to Town (guest) |
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Posted:09/19/2006 3:15 PM |
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Hey, Thanks for your repsonse. Believe me I know freedom is not, not just having sex. After 26 months, that was the only difference in me, so it seems. I tried. prayed. I cried. I read the Bible everyday. I went to church. I did all those things, that I was told would bring me closer to God and therefore freedom. But when is it enough. I know there is no magical formula. I just not sure it is worth it anymore. not even sure what I am fighting is even wrong.
In reponse to the pastor.. you know as well as I do. That people make and pass judgements based on how someone looks. I do it, the church does it, everyone does it. Its not right but it still happens. All I want to know, is if I come in. I might look the part am I going to be ostracised and judged based on how I look. I have been to churches where I have been ostracised. I have been to churches where I was called out from the pulpit being told that I needed prayer. I just can't do that anymore.
Will I have to "fake it till I make it" to be an accepted part of the church.
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gfike
Posts:249
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Posted:09/19/2006 3:21 PM |
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No one here "fakes it till they make it." If you'll look around, you'll see a lot people who have found freedom to admit their needs. Having spoken with individuals who have shared your struggle, I can tell you they have never met with discrimination or alienation here (that I know of). You will not either. There would be no one here on Sundays if they had to get fixed first. There for sure wouldn't be anyone here to preach.
:-)
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aedulaney
Posts:5
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Posted:09/19/2006 6:57 PM |
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To: New to Town:
I'm not nearly as well-versed or as eloquent as those who have spoken before me, but let me just add the following:
I am a member of the Welcome Team on Sundays at the 1:00 service, and I can tell you from my own experience that the people I have had the joy of serving with never label or judge or do anything but WELCOME the people who walk through those doors to receive a message. I have seen so many people come here, and they are all welcomed with a smile and genuine happiness to see them. In fact, it's one of the reasons I wanted to volunteer.
When I first started coming to BRCC I was by myself, being recently separated, and during that initial period of total insecurity, I felt that others would look at me and talk about me, because I was alone. After all, it felt so "obvious" to me! After a couple of months, I finally started to relax and realize that these people were honest and genuine, and I began to come out of my shell. I began to worry less about being judged, and more about what God was doing in my heart and in my life. I am so proud now to be part of that "first wave" of welcoming people who did so much to encourage me in those first few difficult months.
That was pretty wordy, but I was just trying to say that I don't feel looked at or judged in this house - I know that my situation is different than yours, and I apologize if I've offended you, but I don't think that the people here are looking to criticize or ostracize - we're all here to be helped!
Amy
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| DavidJ (guest) |
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Posted:09/20/2006 7:25 PM |
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Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,
I too have been interested in visiting this church for a while and have had all the same questions that have been asked in previous posts. If I visited, would I be singled out or be asked to leave? Would the members of this church treat me like a diseased person and be afraid to shake my hand? I can assure you that these are very real fears for any gay or lesbian person or couple. Once you have experienced this, you don't forget it very quickly and this makes it increadibly difficult to muster up the courage to attend an unfamilar church.
I have spoken with the pastor over the phone and it is my belief that this is a church where all people can attend without the fear of being bashed or singled out intentionally. I plan on attending the 10 o'clock Sunday Morning service instead of my usual church.
Dave
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